It was a pleasure interviewing you! I look forward to our follow up where we can delve into some of the most common criticisms and concerns that came up.
I appreciate this very much. Based on my experience since the late 80s, I have (slowly) come to realize that "veganism," like many rule-based means of identity, has always (and will always) attract fanatics. This is not to say that vegans are all fanatics, just that a certain type of fanatic will be drawn to veganism. Veganism, to them, is not a tool to help animals, but an identity - a public statement about the person. And a statement to be made loudly and constantly. And infidels like Tobias are to be attacked.
Given this, in countries like the US, vegans are more hated than just about any other group. Obviously, this hurts animals overall by making it easy to dismiss anything related to veganism.
Do you see any reason to think this will change? Despite what (some) vegans say, veganism is not exploding, and the number of animals consumed per capita is at or near an all-time high. Seeing this trend over nearly 40 years, I would have to think we can't do worse ....
thanks matt. I think it can be both: people want to help animals, and think they are helping animals (and to some extent they do), but they are wrapped up in this identity thing. sometimes permanently, sometimes as a phase.
the number of vegans indeed is not growing spectacularly. but of course, others can always say that we haven't tried the "go vegan" approach well enough. Personally I think it would be good if we look for other asks, and maybe other forms of identy, that are lower treshold.
I was surprised and disappointed by the mean feedback on the YouTube video comments. Because to me it is obvious that being vegan is part of your identity, thus you want to save the most number of animals *along* with you having a pragmatic strategy to get there. It is as if some people are questioning your veganism (the why) because of your strategy (the how). Which to me is unbelievable, considering your lifelong work and the amazing impact you have.
I look forward to reading your book to learn even more. Keep up the fantastic work!
Great interview! Afterwards, I read through the numerous thoughtful comments on YouTube. The reality surrounding these discussions is that carnism and speciesism--with all their attendant beliefs, values, and psychological defense mechanisms--are pervasive and deeply embedded in the psyche of the vast majority of humans. We live in a harsh, anti-vegan world. To expect a 180 degree reversal within a few decades is delusional, even though the majority of humanity needs to get on board before we irreversibly degrade our environmental life support system. We need to use multiple tactics and approaches to first get to 10 degrees, then 45 degrees, and ideally (ultimately, hopefully) get to 180 degrees. Only a few people flip like switches. Most require time and support.
there's quite a long bibliography/list of references in my book. Basically I haven't found a psychologist yet who disagrees and who doesn't think all of this is quite obvious (except for Casey Taft).
This was such a great interview -- thanks both of you! I am a recent vegan, after seven years as a vegetarian, and I am at a phase where I still have no strong convictions on how to define my boundaries, goals, and stances. To me it's primarily about the animals, and then secondarily about all of the surrounding major issues. I learned new things from the interview, and I was very, very impressed with your answer to the analogy with slavery or child abuse. That answer helps me wrap my mind around one of the dilemmas involved in doing this: how to deal with the fact that most of the people I highly respect, and who are progressive with regard to almost all major causes, are so passively accepting with regard to animal exploitation. It helps to be reminded that this is a matter of socialization that we can't simply wish away, but must work with, and around.
I found the video conversation thought provoking and many of the comments on YouTube disappointingly predictable. The example given about choosing to eat pasta with egg in it if it were under certain circumstances and could in the longer term benefit animals, is indeed a pragmatic approach. So many vegans seem utterly armoured against any flexibility that they might lose sight of why they are vegan in the first place. I don’t really do much to further animal activism, other than introducing as many people to vegan choices as i can, which generally comes down to food, and i should probably try harder myself to influence more people in a pragmatic way. Perhaps i will but your book.
Thank you for this! I have a somewhat unrelated question, but one I thought you may have a good answer to: what do you say when someone tells you they used to be vegan? Granted the context here is hugely important, as is their tone and if they offer any reasons as to why they stopped, and if so, what those reasons were. I recently spoke with someone who seemed to light up when I said I was vegan and wistfully say he used to be vegan for twelve years. In response, I think I said something like, "oh that's awesome" and continued the conversation we were having about finding veg-friendly restaurants. But I wonder what could have come from this conversation if I had maybe asked a good non-judgemental question or engaged him deeper somehow.
I'm always really interesting to know why they are not anymore - and why indeed they went vegan in the first place. And I'm also interested to know about their current diet: did they go back to a regular meat-heavy diet?
Usually these people seem to want to get back on the wagon and I'd encourage them. If they see they have no interest in that, I'd ask them if they could go near-vegan, as most of the reasons to ditch the vegan diet (social, perceived health issues...) would not apply to let's say near-veganism.
In any case, it's important to treat former vegans kindly. There's probably at least four times as many ex-vegans as there are vegans. Which tells us it's also very important to see why they leave gave up.
This is really helpful—thank you! I totally agree that kindness is always the way to go, and I'd never want them to feel judged or looked down on not just because that's inherently unkind, but it seems like it would just further alienate them from the cause. I think that's why I hesitated to dig deeper and just glided past it instead. But you’re right, it would probably feel really validating to talk openly with someone who’s genuinely willing to listen. Next time, I'll make an effort to ask some thoughtful, good-natured questions. Thanks again!
A good video. I've seen a few advocates talking about a more relaxed and inclusionary approach lately (eg Pax Fauna, Emily Barwick). That might be a far more effective strategy than the current idea that we have to convert everyone to be strict vegans (so far, with a spectacular lack of success). I have written about this on my own blog in the last few years. I suggest abandoning the idea that the goal is converting people into vegans, and instead make the goal encouraging people to understand what veganism is really about (eg it's not just a super strict diet) and gaining their support and acceptance that fairness and justice for other animals is indeed important and worth doing something about.
I truly believe the people advocating for nothing but abolition, the all-or-nothing approach, are only in it for themselves. If you don't look at the results of your actions and only how you feel about your actions, you probably aren't helping. I think folks like DxE and Free From Harm in the US have found some ways to advocate for abolition while being effective.
I'm obviously frustrated with such black and white voices, but I still don't think they're in it for themselves or ego alone. I don't see an incompatibility between genuinely caring very much about animals and being very rigid in your thinking? (just like i can't see an incompatibility between genuinely caring and being very pragmatic :-)
It was a pleasure interviewing you! I look forward to our follow up where we can delve into some of the most common criticisms and concerns that came up.
bring it on :)
Hi Tobias (and David),
I appreciate this very much. Based on my experience since the late 80s, I have (slowly) come to realize that "veganism," like many rule-based means of identity, has always (and will always) attract fanatics. This is not to say that vegans are all fanatics, just that a certain type of fanatic will be drawn to veganism. Veganism, to them, is not a tool to help animals, but an identity - a public statement about the person. And a statement to be made loudly and constantly. And infidels like Tobias are to be attacked.
Given this, in countries like the US, vegans are more hated than just about any other group. Obviously, this hurts animals overall by making it easy to dismiss anything related to veganism.
Do you see any reason to think this will change? Despite what (some) vegans say, veganism is not exploding, and the number of animals consumed per capita is at or near an all-time high. Seeing this trend over nearly 40 years, I would have to think we can't do worse ....
thanks matt. I think it can be both: people want to help animals, and think they are helping animals (and to some extent they do), but they are wrapped up in this identity thing. sometimes permanently, sometimes as a phase.
the number of vegans indeed is not growing spectacularly. but of course, others can always say that we haven't tried the "go vegan" approach well enough. Personally I think it would be good if we look for other asks, and maybe other forms of identy, that are lower treshold.
"Go vegan!" can never fail, it can only be failed.
🤪
I was surprised and disappointed by the mean feedback on the YouTube video comments. Because to me it is obvious that being vegan is part of your identity, thus you want to save the most number of animals *along* with you having a pragmatic strategy to get there. It is as if some people are questioning your veganism (the why) because of your strategy (the how). Which to me is unbelievable, considering your lifelong work and the amazing impact you have.
I look forward to reading your book to learn even more. Keep up the fantastic work!
thank you Carolina.
that's very well put (questioning the why based on differences regarding the how). I also really don't understand...
Great interview! Afterwards, I read through the numerous thoughtful comments on YouTube. The reality surrounding these discussions is that carnism and speciesism--with all their attendant beliefs, values, and psychological defense mechanisms--are pervasive and deeply embedded in the psyche of the vast majority of humans. We live in a harsh, anti-vegan world. To expect a 180 degree reversal within a few decades is delusional, even though the majority of humanity needs to get on board before we irreversibly degrade our environmental life support system. We need to use multiple tactics and approaches to first get to 10 degrees, then 45 degrees, and ideally (ultimately, hopefully) get to 180 degrees. Only a few people flip like switches. Most require time and support.
Truly appreciated and needed! Thank you both!
I LOVE your book and it definitely changed my way of thinking and my actions and effectiveness as an animal activist. Thank you so much!
glad to hear that. thanks for all you do for the animals <3
This was fantastic, thank you!!!
I’d be interested in hearing more details about the research that supports your approach. An important conversation/topic, for sure!
there's quite a long bibliography/list of references in my book. Basically I haven't found a psychologist yet who disagrees and who doesn't think all of this is quite obvious (except for Casey Taft).
This was such a great interview -- thanks both of you! I am a recent vegan, after seven years as a vegetarian, and I am at a phase where I still have no strong convictions on how to define my boundaries, goals, and stances. To me it's primarily about the animals, and then secondarily about all of the surrounding major issues. I learned new things from the interview, and I was very, very impressed with your answer to the analogy with slavery or child abuse. That answer helps me wrap my mind around one of the dilemmas involved in doing this: how to deal with the fact that most of the people I highly respect, and who are progressive with regard to almost all major causes, are so passively accepting with regard to animal exploitation. It helps to be reminded that this is a matter of socialization that we can't simply wish away, but must work with, and around.
thanks roger.
I plan to write something about very smart, caring, progressive people ignoring the animal issue.
re socialization, one way i've put it before is: "Most people eat meat because most people eat meat" :-)
I found the video conversation thought provoking and many of the comments on YouTube disappointingly predictable. The example given about choosing to eat pasta with egg in it if it were under certain circumstances and could in the longer term benefit animals, is indeed a pragmatic approach. So many vegans seem utterly armoured against any flexibility that they might lose sight of why they are vegan in the first place. I don’t really do much to further animal activism, other than introducing as many people to vegan choices as i can, which generally comes down to food, and i should probably try harder myself to influence more people in a pragmatic way. Perhaps i will but your book.
glad some people understand :-)
thanks for your efforts
Thank you for this! I have a somewhat unrelated question, but one I thought you may have a good answer to: what do you say when someone tells you they used to be vegan? Granted the context here is hugely important, as is their tone and if they offer any reasons as to why they stopped, and if so, what those reasons were. I recently spoke with someone who seemed to light up when I said I was vegan and wistfully say he used to be vegan for twelve years. In response, I think I said something like, "oh that's awesome" and continued the conversation we were having about finding veg-friendly restaurants. But I wonder what could have come from this conversation if I had maybe asked a good non-judgemental question or engaged him deeper somehow.
I don't mean to hijack your discussion with Tobias, but I've written two articles on this topic in case you'd like to read.
The Truth About Ex-Vegans: A Shift We Can’t Ignore: https://davidramms.substack.com/p/the-truth-about-ex-vegans-a-shift?r=1fhfta
"Why I Quit Veganism" - How to Respond Without Losing Your Cool: https://davidramms.substack.com/p/why-i-quit-veganism-how-to-respond?r=1fhfta
I hope you find them useful!
Oh awesome, appreciate the resources and I'm excited to check them out! Thank you!
I'm always really interesting to know why they are not anymore - and why indeed they went vegan in the first place. And I'm also interested to know about their current diet: did they go back to a regular meat-heavy diet?
Usually these people seem to want to get back on the wagon and I'd encourage them. If they see they have no interest in that, I'd ask them if they could go near-vegan, as most of the reasons to ditch the vegan diet (social, perceived health issues...) would not apply to let's say near-veganism.
In any case, it's important to treat former vegans kindly. There's probably at least four times as many ex-vegans as there are vegans. Which tells us it's also very important to see why they leave gave up.
This is really helpful—thank you! I totally agree that kindness is always the way to go, and I'd never want them to feel judged or looked down on not just because that's inherently unkind, but it seems like it would just further alienate them from the cause. I think that's why I hesitated to dig deeper and just glided past it instead. But you’re right, it would probably feel really validating to talk openly with someone who’s genuinely willing to listen. Next time, I'll make an effort to ask some thoughtful, good-natured questions. Thanks again!
A good video. I've seen a few advocates talking about a more relaxed and inclusionary approach lately (eg Pax Fauna, Emily Barwick). That might be a far more effective strategy than the current idea that we have to convert everyone to be strict vegans (so far, with a spectacular lack of success). I have written about this on my own blog in the last few years. I suggest abandoning the idea that the goal is converting people into vegans, and instead make the goal encouraging people to understand what veganism is really about (eg it's not just a super strict diet) and gaining their support and acceptance that fairness and justice for other animals is indeed important and worth doing something about.
agreed :)
Thanks, Tobias and David, and thanks everyone for the discussion in the Comments.
thanx, tobias.
it's good to know that i'm not alone in my fight against the vegan taliban.
I truly believe the people advocating for nothing but abolition, the all-or-nothing approach, are only in it for themselves. If you don't look at the results of your actions and only how you feel about your actions, you probably aren't helping. I think folks like DxE and Free From Harm in the US have found some ways to advocate for abolition while being effective.
I'm obviously frustrated with such black and white voices, but I still don't think they're in it for themselves or ego alone. I don't see an incompatibility between genuinely caring very much about animals and being very rigid in your thinking? (just like i can't see an incompatibility between genuinely caring and being very pragmatic :-)