I’m not sure empathy is that important for the movement. I consider myself as rather low on empathy scale. I did not need strong feelings to become vegan. It was more a rational eye opening moment that made me decide to become vegan 5 years ago.
On the other hand, I try to be more empathetic because I think it makes me better and nicer person, and it seems to work. (work: as in I think more about other peoples’ perspectives and emotions)
right, thanks, very interesting discussion. I have been wondering whether one can do good things and care from rationality alone (without empathy say). had been planning to write a post on that sometime. a few thoughts, all of which are preliminary :)
- I'm sure you could program a robot to behave kind, without the robot even be conscious, so that he can't really experience empathy.
- still, with people who say they act mainly on the basis of rationality, I still wonder 1) if empathy really doesn't play a role and 2) if they would even function better/do more *with*empathy (combined with rationality)
- on the other hand, empathy could make things worse (ineffective altruism). however, if everyone would be empathic, I guess there would be less or no need for supereffective altruism
- i feel that teaching people to be more rational is just as difficult as teaching them to be more empathic, and that empathy can do as least as much as rationality, so it still remains to me perhaps the most question in the world
I'm no Robot, I hope empathy does play a role in my decisions ;-) Maybe it's more untraining empathy surpression in a toxic patriarchal society what I'm doing.
Your story about the chickens does sound familiar. I was very much aware and have been the one wielding the axe :( Without much problems, at the time.
I understand we are more keen to be empathetic towards problems closer to us. Sometimes at cost of our energy/time/money towards graver problems further away. But I also believe it would be a net win to be more open to our feelings.
This was deep and beautiful. I agree that compassion can be "activated;" that is the perfect word for it. I have thought about this some after starting Sam Harris's book, Free Will. Like you, I didn't "learn" to have compassion for animals, when at 16, with no personal examples (or even in the media, books, etc) I decided not to eat meat anymore. This isn't teachable, I don't think. But it is still crucial to plant the seeds all over society, which will hopefully be "activated" at some point.
You might also like (or like better) Robert Sapolsky's "Determined." Personally, I think it is better on the subject. Sapolsky is gentle and funny and has empathy (sic) for people who just can't wrap their head around the idea of no free will.
Everything on Earth runs on duality—good and evil—and since we have free will, we get to choose which side to activate. Stories like this can spark what's already deep in us, helping awaken empathy and bring out our better side. Appreciate you sharing, Tobias!
Thanks, as always, Tobias.
I want to support Pietje's note that you don't *need* empathy to not support cruelty to other animals. For most people, I bet it helps, though.
>I haven’t made up my mind about how much free will we have,
Would you like a hint?
:-D
https://www.mattball.org/2023/06/enlightenment-june-2023-emptiness-and.html
hi matt, see my comment under Pietje’s comment
re free will, I’m leaning towards none :-)
I’m not sure empathy is that important for the movement. I consider myself as rather low on empathy scale. I did not need strong feelings to become vegan. It was more a rational eye opening moment that made me decide to become vegan 5 years ago.
On the other hand, I try to be more empathetic because I think it makes me better and nicer person, and it seems to work. (work: as in I think more about other peoples’ perspectives and emotions)
right, thanks, very interesting discussion. I have been wondering whether one can do good things and care from rationality alone (without empathy say). had been planning to write a post on that sometime. a few thoughts, all of which are preliminary :)
- I'm sure you could program a robot to behave kind, without the robot even be conscious, so that he can't really experience empathy.
- still, with people who say they act mainly on the basis of rationality, I still wonder 1) if empathy really doesn't play a role and 2) if they would even function better/do more *with*empathy (combined with rationality)
- on the other hand, empathy could make things worse (ineffective altruism). however, if everyone would be empathic, I guess there would be less or no need for supereffective altruism
- i feel that teaching people to be more rational is just as difficult as teaching them to be more empathic, and that empathy can do as least as much as rationality, so it still remains to me perhaps the most question in the world
>on the other hand, empathy could make things worse (ineffective altruism).
Have you read Paul Bloom's "Against Empathy"? Or heard him on podcasts about this? That is his exact argument. Take care.
yes, that's what i'm referring to :)
I'm no Robot, I hope empathy does play a role in my decisions ;-) Maybe it's more untraining empathy surpression in a toxic patriarchal society what I'm doing.
Your story about the chickens does sound familiar. I was very much aware and have been the one wielding the axe :( Without much problems, at the time.
I understand we are more keen to be empathetic towards problems closer to us. Sometimes at cost of our energy/time/money towards graver problems further away. But I also believe it would be a net win to be more open to our feelings.
This was deep and beautiful. I agree that compassion can be "activated;" that is the perfect word for it. I have thought about this some after starting Sam Harris's book, Free Will. Like you, I didn't "learn" to have compassion for animals, when at 16, with no personal examples (or even in the media, books, etc) I decided not to eat meat anymore. This isn't teachable, I don't think. But it is still crucial to plant the seeds all over society, which will hopefully be "activated" at some point.
Hi Carolina,
You might also like (or like better) Robert Sapolsky's "Determined." Personally, I think it is better on the subject. Sapolsky is gentle and funny and has empathy (sic) for people who just can't wrap their head around the idea of no free will.
:-)
you can also find many podcasts/youtubes with Sapolsky if you find “Determined” too daunting :)
Amazing, I hadn't heard of him - will definitely give it a read and a listen!
He has a great voice. A gentle, lovely soul. [sic ;-]
Thanks for another helpful concept/reminder, Tobias. Yes, this does help get me to a more compassionate frame of mind.
I appreciate you.
Everything on Earth runs on duality—good and evil—and since we have free will, we get to choose which side to activate. Stories like this can spark what's already deep in us, helping awaken empathy and bring out our better side. Appreciate you sharing, Tobias!
thx.
I feel more that we have *no* free will :-)
To.become vegan, it's already enough to recognize the injustice done to defenseless nonhumannanimald. And Nature!!